W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (2024)

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Dec 20, 2009
  • #1

Hi,

Just got my Barnes lathe after a bit more than 6 months of patient waiting. Many thanks to the haulers group for helping me with that.

She is a standard length No 5 with a few accesories. I am planing to put her back to origonal. Does anyone here realy know alot about this model? I would like to date her as accurately as possible. I suspect she is an earlier one as all the screw slots are offset in the heads. I need to make or buy a few pieces. Most notably all the foot feed parts and the tool post. Is there anyone near me that can help me with loaner pieces or perhaps selling me some parts. I think I may be able to get some castings made from origonals if I can borrow them. Dimensions for a good origonal tool post and velocipede crank would also be very helpfull.

Thanks

Mike W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (2)

M

MarcD

Aluminum
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Location
Essex County MA
  • Dec 21, 2009
  • #2

Barnes lathe

Mike Powell said:

Hi,

Just got my Barnes lathe after a bit more than 6 months of patient waiting. Many thanks to the haulers group for helping me with that.

She is a standard length No 5 with a few accesories. I am planing to put her back to origonal. Does anyone here realy know alot about this model? I would like to date her as accurately as possible. I suspect she is an earlier one as all the screw slots are offset in the heads. I need to make or buy a few pieces. Most notably all the foot feed parts and the tool post. Is there anyone near me that can help me with loaner pieces or perhaps selling me some parts. I think I may be able to get some castings made from origonals if I can borrow them. Dimensions for a good origonal tool post and velocipede crank would also be very helpfull.

Thanks

Mike W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (3)

Mike,

I have a W F & J Barnes 4 1/2 that I am restoring and have received help from Ed Hobbs and George Stef over at OWWM.org. I am sure there are some others here at PM that would also be a source of Info.

I do have some limited printed info so send an email and I can "hook you up".

Marc

E

Ed Hobbs

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Location
Raleigh, NC
  • Dec 21, 2009
  • #3

The source (Doug) of replacement parts has retired and sold all his stuff to somebody who does not plan on selling any of it.

I have a 4, a 4 1/2 and am restoring a treadle #5 but I don't have a complete velocipede number five. Somewhere on the lathe there should be a stamped serial number. Have seen them on the ends of the headstock and I think on that end of the bed itself but I am not sure where they may be on the #5. (My #5 is in storage so I have not tried to locate the serial number.)

From my expereince, you find more 4 1/2's than #5's and yes, the foot powered parts are typcially missing.

Making the shaft for the pedals takes a lot of bending of I think a 1 in diameter steel rod. As I understand it, you need a thick flat plate that you can insert steel pegs into at your "bend points" and heat the h... out of it.

The pedals themselves are cast in two pieces and the mounting brackets and busings are also cast iron. The flywheel is large and has to be machined after it is cast. It is a three step one. From what I undersatnd, that is where the cost and effort come in. You also have to cast two sprockets, one for the flywheel and one for the rear shaft for the chain drive.

Not saying it can't be done but there is a lot of work.

From time to time they do come up on e-bay and through prvate sales. Think there is a 4 1/2 complete with foot powered parts on e-bay now for about $1050. Considering the cost of castings, machining, etc., that might just be an easier way to get a complete Barnes metal lathe that when you get finished is all original.

Anyhow, my $.02

Send me a private message if you have more questions, etc., and we can connect up that way.

Thanks Ed

J

Joe in NH

Diamond
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Stratham, Cow Hampshire
  • Dec 21, 2009
  • #4

This is all part of the conundrum of Barnes Velocipede Lathes.

There was a gentleman who was selling a pretty complete 4-1/2 on Craigslist here in Cow Hampshire. And he had it as a "buy it now" on Ebay for a couple of months. And he had it back on Craigslist for a few months more after that. No bites - but considering the lack of movement, I expect no dickering either. $500 was the asking price, but this for a lathe missing the pulley, belt, pedals & shaft, chain, sprockets, underarm, seat. When you get done buying all those parts and making them work, you have above $1500 invested.

There is some of the "can't afford to build a car from parts" effect here. But that also tells you perhaps what a complete and resonably functional Barnes lathe should be costing.

But they don't frequently. There are still a lot of Barnes lathes hiding in grampy's chicken coop (why are they always found in chicken coops?) and bought for extremely small money.

A similar Seneca Falls "three star" sold on Vermont Craigslist for $150 - and it sold in less than two days.

Hope you did well on yours. If not, time heals all financial wounds.

All the screws on my No. 5 are allen headed. I think mine is post 1910.

See http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/another-barnes-4-1-174754.html for discussion of occurence of parts/complete machines.

Right now (this moment) a machine dealer/retailer is selling a resonably complete pedal machine with seat for $999.

Joe

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Dec 21, 2009
  • #5

I think I did well. I gave 150.00 for mine. It was converted to motor a long time ago. It is fairly complete but will need a tool post, and the stuff for the velocopede. Lets see... If I can borrow the crank brackets, sprockets, pedals I should be able to get those cast. And bend up a crank from 7/8 CRS. Finish machining the stuff is not a real problem for me. I have access to mills, and lathes and even have a 20" lathe in my home shop. I know I could likely buy one complete but like most folks I dont have that kind of scratch all at once but I can produce a bit at a time. Besides fixing this stuff is fun! Just need to find a fella willing to trust me witha few bits from there collection. I will need a seat and arm as well. Oh and the post would be a fun machining project.

Mike W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (5)

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #6

Barnes Lathe and Repop Parts

Hi all,

Back on the saga of my antique Barnes No. 5 engine lathe. I am moving forward with the help of Ed Hobbs (thanks Ed). He was more than kind enough to lend me some pieces and give me some advise. I am presently working on a jig for bending velocopeede cranks. I expect I should have one some time next week. I have prety well figured out how it should be bent but realy could use a correct length for the finished crank so I can make it as close as possiple to the correct size.

Thanks
Mike W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (7)

J

Joe in NH

Diamond
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Stratham, Cow Hampshire
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #7

I'm at work now but I'll measure my original No. 5 crank and edit this message later for the findings.

If you can make cranks for a No. 5, then there is nothing keeping you (except time and stock) from making a crank for a No.4-1/2. You may be "da man" henceforth as there are a whole bunch of 4-1/2s and 5s that are missing the crank.

In a lot of ways we're becoming like the movie Fahrenheit 451. You remember that one? Books are banned and in order for any banned knowledge to be transmitted, people would "memorize" the book and would recite it verbatim on request by a "reader." The memorizer would "become" the book.

You can be the "master of cranks." (That didn't come out right, did it?)

Joe

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #8

Farenheit 451

I read alot of books but I never read that one. I do know the premmis of it though. I do not wish to damn myself but I am planing to begin producing Barnes lathe parts. First part will be 4 1/2 -5 cranks. I already have it laid out in cad just need to drill the plate and make my pins. Hopefully I will be able to bend my first one next week. If all works well I am meeting with a foundary man about seting up for production on the pedals and such. I plan to add a part to the line every few months.

Mike W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (9)

shaperhaven

Cast Iron
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Location
tn
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #9

Hmmm , I have a barnes lathe that I would like to put back original someday. Shaperhaven

J

Joe in NH

Diamond
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Stratham, Cow Hampshire
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #10

Pedal shaft is 37" overall. Actually, on my lathe this extends about 1" beyond the collar that holds it in the bearings (sprocket holds it on the left side and the collar holds it on the right.) The overhang may be dependent upon where and how you put your pedal shaft hangers (can be mounted on the inside of the legs or on the outside.) Both of mine are inside.

The distance from the end of the shaft to the centerline of the pedal (either left or right) is 10". The pedals fit pretty tight with 1/4" or less of slop left to right. The center pedal is "centered." The throw (circle described by pedals) is 6-1/2."

Hope this agrees with what you've seen/drawn.

Joe

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #11

Thanks for the info! I dont have the drawing on my home PC. It is on my personal lap top at school. I will be sure to check it all out on Monday. It sounds like it all agrees. I am using a repop crank for a 4 1/2 as a guide and I just drew it up with one more pedal kick in it. From every engraving I have ever seen the crank brackets go on the inside of the legs. Sounds like I already have some customers LOL.

Mike

Forestgnome

Stainless
Joined
Aug 2, 2008
Location
Californeeeah
  • Jan 22, 2010
  • #12

Wouldn't the 4-1/2 and 5 treadle parts be the same? There might be diffrences depending on year of manufacture. By the way Mike, That'ld be great if you started making some repro parts. There's a lot of old Barnes that need resurrecting! (mine included)W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (13)

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Jan 23, 2010
  • #13

As I understand it a bunch of the Barnes Parts were the same or very similar from model to model. The 5 is longer and has a greater swing than the 4 1/2. Otherwise the crank is made the same way and from the same size material. Based on the immages in a reprint Barnes catalog all the barnes lathes seem to take slightly different cranks. The No 5 actually has 3 pedals while the 4 and 4-1/2 have 2 pedals. The 5-1/2 and 6 had 4 pedals. There also seems to be some variation in parts within model families. I have learned that significantly different sprocket sets were made for some lathes to allow for greater spindle speeds. As It was explaind to me, some customers would likely request the change for turning wood or spining metal.

I only own one of these lathes at the moment. I am not an expert in any sense of the word. I hope some of you will chime in to teach me more about these machines.

Mike W F & J Barnes Lathe No 5 (15)

J

Joe in NH

Diamond
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Location
Stratham, Cow Hampshire
  • Jan 23, 2010
  • #14

The 4-1/2 change gears are 16dp while the 5 gears are 14dp.

The spindle/tailstock taper may vary between the two models. This has been discussed here on this board.

The metal lathe seats were the same seat as the No. 2 velocipede jigsaw. The underarm was different though.

I bought my replacement seat from the "Tool Works" who used to have a business making "rosette tools" for use in a drill press to make the decorative corner blocks used on doors and windows in victorian houses. They don't appear to be in business now. Tool Works reproduced the No. 2 Velocipede Jig Saw in cast aluminum - except for the seat which was cast iron. The repop jig saw went for $1400 plus - even in aluminum!

Doug Cunningham sold me an underarm (Very nice quality. He must have had a very good foundry!) Also pedal shaft hangers and an agricultural chain (Chain was originally made by Rex Chain Belt Co. and was known as "detachable" chain.) Farm & Fleet Stores out west still carry the chain .

I've seen detail differences on the handles on the No. 5 cross slide. Mine is a sort of "star shaped" handle with a crank knob perpendicular. There are differences too on the half nuts handle.

One Barnes 5 I saw had a crank handle on the tailstock handwheel. Mine does not.

Hard to know how much of this is original and how much has been modified by a former machinist owner.

Joe

Mike Powell

Stainless
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
East Palestine, Ohio
  • Jan 24, 2010
  • #15

Does anyone have one of Doug Cunningham's old price lists? I am starting to get quotes on having pieces cast up localy. Seeing these would give me a much better feel for profit margins and such. I am planing to make up my own paterns on match boards to produce multiple pieces from one mold. This would be the fastest and most economical. This will all come in time so be patient with me. I have alot on my plate; work, school, family, home, building hot rods and now this. One thing I can prommise is if I cant do it well, I wont do it!

Mike

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